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rat-l-can
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 14

Thanks again Franz, I'll will be doing this on a 63' I have and a friend wants to do his single cab also. All I need now is warmer weather!
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56Hotrod
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:03 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 268
Location: SC

First off, thanks John for authorizing access. Obviously this is my first post, so a little intro: I got my 56 Oval back in 1990. It was my 2nd VW, and we built it up good. During college, I got a different daily driver, and the car basically sat from 94 till now. During that time, rust built up pretty good in the pan and body, and I'm back doing a pan off rebuild. The car is on a 73 IRS pan (26 9/16" torsion bars).

I got a 4" narrowed beam from KCW last year, and it is great (although still sitting in the corner of my garage). So, I got the pan on a dolly, the body on saw horses, and have removed the RHS pan section waiting for new metal. Tranny is out, and I've got the LHS trailing arm out. Where I want to be, is lower and wider in the rear and front. I am going to flip the trailing arms, and came up with this idea...which is relavent to this thread.

Before teardown, I was visualizing the project, and the width limitation in the rear looked to be the snubber arm, and then the spring plate. What I want to do, is cut out 1 7/8" of the torsion housings out, weld it back up, and use the smaller Sway-A-Way 24 11/16" torsion bars. Then cut the wheel wells out, cut down the luggage shelf 1 7/8" inward, and weld the wheel wells back in to align the body/shock tower mount back up. This gives plenty of wheel clearance inward. The plan would be to send the wheels off to Stockton Wheel and have the centers cut out, put on larger 16" or 17" x 8 rims with offsets calculated.

Where I'm questioning myself is three-fold:
1. How much clearance I'm going to have towards the rear of the wheel well that is inside the engine compartment. My recollection was the carbs were damn close to the sides so narrowing those will pose a problem.
2. Should I go ahead and narrow the bearing carrier the 26mm to give more fender clearance? If I don't have to, it would be a big plus by staying with readily available axles.
3. Am I crazy? Is this feasible?

I want to keep the stockish look, yet have more meat for my feet. The front is a similar situation. The 135 tires I had before were basically skis in the wet - even with 4 wheel disk brakes. With the 4" narrowed beam, I'm hoping to get enough offset to widen the front wheels simlar to the rear, say 15x7", but am skeptical there. Maybe stock 5.5" wide wheels will be enough.

Details of the project can be found at:
www.steven-laura.net/Steven/VW

Anyway, I've browsed the forums and gallery for months and the crew at KCW has inspired me greatly. Fantastic work you guys do.

-Steven

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john jones
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:32 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 13963
Location: KCW

So your not actually trying to tuck the rear end, move the outer most point on the tire inward, (like I am usually trying to do).. You just want more room inbetween the tire and spring plate situation now, so you can run wider rims outback, with all the extra width on the inside?

Yes what you are talking about doing sounds like it will work. I guess you will have to run longer spring plate bolts and make a spacer the amount you narrow each side to put between the spring plate and bearing housing..

I don't think you will be into your engine bay too much just yet.. if you only go 2 more inches inward on each side.. I think dual carbs will still work fine. they barely extend out past your engine tin. Although, I have never done what you are talking about.. I usually tranny raise and narrow the back together.

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Franz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 16049
Location: Grand Junction, CO

If your going to have wheels built...with the right offset you should be able to fit a 7" wide wheel under a stock body with stock width suspension. The tire will be very close to rubbing the fender though. The only reason I would go through all of the work to back-half a car is to tuck some 10"+ wheels and do a 4" torsion housing/transaxle raise at the same time.
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56Hotrod
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:16 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 268
Location: SC

Thanks for the input guys.
I do want to tuck the rear slightly, but I think if I keep the same positive offset, the wheels will go up into the fenders without hitting the fenders (stock VW susension fully compressed doesn't rub, right)? If I don't do the carrier bearing relocation thing, then the positive offset doesn't change, it only gets wide on the inside.

Another thing, when I flip the trailing arms, since I'm cutting up everything anyway, I was going to cut off the spring plate mount, and relocate it down the trailing arm to match the new position of the spring plates...and weld er back up (thus, no need for longer bolts, etc). Like this:


The one part I'm still on the fence about, is to relocate the carrier or not. It would be sweet to pull it in 26mm, and give that offset back to a fatter dish on the stock modified wheel and still get room for 8" wide wheels. 10s Franz? That just sounds like crazy talk :) but now you mention it, I kinda like it. The whole wheel modifying part will come last, with everything back together and measured for proper offset/sizing.

So 16" or 17" modified wheels with stock centers, widened and shoed with 50 or lower series tires, and 2 outer splines lowered would sit good in my mind (my mind hasn't fully translated into reality, which the reality check is getting opinions from experts).

I don't know why, but the whole tranny raise thing scares me a bit. I think I need to research it more (although I've read a ton of stuff here about it). I think engine fitment inside the engine compartment is my main fear, followed by sealing the cooling tin.

Also, there is rust in the front corners of the luggage shelf already; plus, I'm cutting out the whole heater channels and front firewall; plus all new floor pan metal...so a little thing like moving the rear fender wells seems like not too much additional trouble (uh, I think)...

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GTV
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:15 am  Reply with quote
ninja


Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 1722
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

There is no point in relocating the bearing housing in 26mm if you are using custom offset wheels. I just did that trick on my GTV and it was a pain in the ass... if you dont have to do it, avoid it.

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66 Shorty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:11 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Rhode Island

I have gone & re-read the Parts getter thread, it seems you narrowed the T/H 5" & still used the short Bug Swing Axles. Did you buy shorter xles & Tubes for this build Or did I miss something?

I'm lost now... Seeing that the Photo in this thread says The Bus T/H is 3" longer than a Short axle Bug...



I'm thinking of doing the T/H narrowing (or having it done) to use a Ghia IRS, but, now it seems to have some conflicting info... Could you shed some light on this for me? As far as I know the Ghia T/H is the same width as the Bug... I may just roll it this year without narrowing or swapping in the IRS, but, I need the correct info before I screw things up BIG TIME! OR, I might just buy the IRS kit Nate sells & be done with it! I wanted the narrowed T/H so I could use some big meats on the rear of the Bus though...

Thanks in advance!

Steve X.
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Franz
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:26 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 16049
Location: Grand Junction, CO

You have the ghia/type 1 pan that your stealing the parts from right? Take a look at it and get some measurements. You'll have to narrow the bus torsion housing to be the same width as the beetle/ghia that your getting the parts from. IRS track width is about 2 1/2" wider than a short swing axle from a 66 and earlier type 1...All your doing by narrowing the torsion housing and running IRS is making it able to run a wheel with more negative offset. Bus/type 2 torsion springs and spring plates are different than beetle/ghia/type 1 stuff....so, you'll have to modify them to work.

Or like you said just buy Nate's kit. I'd determine what wheels you plan to run before you do anything...I like swing axle better than IRS too.
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66 Shorty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:41 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Rhode Island

Franz,
You know what... I was thinking to myself after I sent that, someones going to tell me I should just measure my own shit to see what i've got... d'oh! But, My problem is I haven't gotten to drag the Ghia home & cut it up yet, so , I really can't takle any measurements as of yet. I'm still trying to collect all the parts I'll need to do it. As far as the track width being wider I didn't know that, so, thanks for that info! I have talked to another guy that did the IRS in a Bus, & he said I should be able toget 8" wide wheels in there w/o a problem... So, it looks like I'll be limited by that anyhow... I really wanted some 10" wide wheels on the back, I've got a decent set that I thought was on the back of the bus like 15-20 years ago with some really wide L60's on them... Guess I was wrong!

I was orinigaly going to go with swing axles, but, I kinda fell into a good deal on the Ghias. I didn't want to pass it up & I like the idea of the IRS not tipping the tires in or out... Plus teh gearing is better in the Ghias than a bug as well... I always thought the IRS was a better suspension, but, the swing was easier to do the conversion...

Thanks for the info Franz, it IS Much appreciated!
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Pigpen
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:55 am  Reply with quote
What vasectomy?


Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 6097

HotRod, if I understand what you are trying to accomplish correctly, you will still have clearance issues at the springplate if you narrow your trailing arms..Do you want to run a wheel with a greater negative offset?? I think what John said is your best option..Make a spacer plate to fit between stock trailing arm and narrowed torsion /spring plate..That would bring your spring plate inward for more inner clearance..
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56Hotrod
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:34 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 268
Location: SC

KPVdub wrote:
HotRod, if I understand what you are trying to accomplish correctly, you will still have clearance issues at the springplate if you narrow your trailing arms..Do you want to run a wheel with a greater negative offset?? I think what John said is your best option..Make a spacer plate to fit between stock trailing arm and narrowed torsion /spring plate..That would bring your spring plate inward for more inner clearance..


That's what I'm doing. First, flip the trailing arms for the camber issue. Since I'm cutting and welding items on the trailing arms, might as well cut the spring plate mount and move it in to match the shortened torsion housing. This moves the whole spring plate in 1.875" (and this is instead of making an adaptor plate to mount the spring plate to the trailing arm). Now if I keep the axles the same, I've gained 1.875" of wheel width on the inside. The problem is, since I've got the 4" narrowed front beam, and going with wider front wheels and more negative offset, I don't want a larger dish in the front than in the back (asthetics). So, therefore, I think it is obvious I will narrow the bearing carrier in the trailing arms 26mm...then change the offset to a more negative number (maybe a -15mm change). This gives me a larger dish, and still a wide wheel...something I could not do without doing both mods.

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Franz
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:08 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 16049
Location: Grand Junction, CO

You know that the body mounts on the shock towers?...and you'll have to move the whole wheel tub/body mount in the same amount you're narrowing the torsion housing? Which means TONS of work. More power to you if you can get it done....just seems like a lot of work for so little.
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56Hotrod
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:20 pm  Reply with quote



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 268
Location: SC

Franz wrote:
You know that the body mounts on the shock towers?...and you'll have to move the whole wheel tub/body mount in the same amount you're narrowing the torsion housing? Which means TONS of work. More power to you if you can get it done....just seems like a lot of work for so little.


Yeah, I stated that way up top. I know it's tons of work, but I'm basically doing that much work anyway with all the rust repair:



One option that I've thought about but not totally investigated, was flipping the body mount to the inside of the wheel well. If the hole center is half of what I'm narrowing, then it may be easy to do that.

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Jobe
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:20 pm  Reply with quote
what flip?


Joined: 02 Jan 2009
Posts: 1562
Location: West side Nebraska

Franz wrote:
dhpcc wrote:
how you doing this on buses?


Like this:


























Any handy pics with the mesurements for the springplate holes and slots?

or at least the measurements so we know were to drill?

Im going to tear into this project this week on my 67' panel. my short axle tranny is redone and ready to install.

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Franz
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:29 am  Reply with quote



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 16049
Location: Grand Junction, CO

Do you have access to a type one spring plate? Make a template off of it...thats how we do em'.
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